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	<title>Comments for Social Evolution Forum</title>
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		<title>Comment on Why Become a Farmer? by pjricherson</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/20/why-become-a-farmer/#comment-16596</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pjricherson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 16:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1131#comment-16596</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Grinding equipment goes back well into the late Pleistocene, In addition to possibly grinding seeds, such equipment was used to grind ochre for pigment and possibly for other uses like polishing wood. The existence of this technology is definitely a preadaptation to agriculture. According to Bob, before agriculture grinding kit is relatively rare and often small. He says the commonest non-specialized way to deal with plant seeds was to parch them--essentially make them into crude popcorn. From this you only get a fraction of the calories you get from labor intensive milling, but it is quick and easy to do. Once people start grinding 1500 kcals of seeds per capita per day, grindstones become abundant and large. He claims it is easy to recognize the advent of large scale labor intensive seed grinding. His experience is in California and in China specifically looking for the Chinese Neolithic (advent of farming). I think he represents a pretty is pretty firm consensus that Chinese agriculture is nearly as early or as early as in the Near East, but in the Holocene.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grinding equipment goes back well into the late Pleistocene, In addition to possibly grinding seeds, such equipment was used to grind ochre for pigment and possibly for other uses like polishing wood. The existence of this technology is definitely a preadaptation to agriculture. According to Bob, before agriculture grinding kit is relatively rare and often small. He says the commonest non-specialized way to deal with plant seeds was to parch them&#8211;essentially make them into crude popcorn. From this you only get a fraction of the calories you get from labor intensive milling, but it is quick and easy to do. Once people start grinding 1500 kcals of seeds per capita per day, grindstones become abundant and large. He claims it is easy to recognize the advent of large scale labor intensive seed grinding. His experience is in California and in China specifically looking for the Chinese Neolithic (advent of farming). I think he represents a pretty is pretty firm consensus that Chinese agriculture is nearly as early or as early as in the Near East, but in the Holocene.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Become a Farmer? by James Waddington</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/20/why-become-a-farmer/#comment-16592</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Waddington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 15:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1131#comment-16592</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As usual, a challenging hypothesis, very thought provoking.
There is something in the air.  In The Guardian on Saturday there was a review of Daniel Dennet’s Intuition Pumps and other Tools for Thinking, in which Steven Rose generally slagged off Dennet, and then himself got a bit of a going over in the comments.  A CJ Hacket wrote, for instance, “You can&#039;t talk favourably of group selection and expect to be taken seriously.”
CJ Hacket has a point.  Quite a few philosophers, sociologists and anthropologists invoke the notion of human culture being an evolutionary process, while in fact ignoring evolution and even having a ball with teleological accounts which run directly counter to anything Darwin might have had in mind.
A case in point.  Eminent men (not just Steven Rose, and I think they’re all men) have recently talked about evolution taking place at the level of the group.  Maybe I’m an old-fashioned literalist, but to me evolution involves re-iteration, variation and selection.  All three of them. The only selection process that might be exerted on a group is by that group’s environment, which will include other groups (ethno-lingusitic in Peter’s example).  A group in this sense has a certain amount in common with a species in biological evolution.  You might say that competition between species is in some sense evolutionary, in the competition between hunter and prey perhaps.  But it would be a very partial assertion, because at the same time you would have to acknolwledge that evolution only takes place at the level of a genetic, epigenetic, somatic and behavioural envelope; the individual.  It is individuals who are selected or not by their environment.  No other hypothesis is scientifically current.
In Peter’s article, he is seeking to explain at least two things.  The first is the evolution of agriculture itself.  As Peter Richerson sugests with his usual gentle cogency, this must have been a very lengthy process, going back as far as you like, but at least 100 ka, and immensely complex, and also in an evolutionary interdependence with the rest of the behaviour of the human organism, fighting, painting and so on.  Peter (Turchin) is therefore very sensible to take this evolution as a given, and present agriculture as a fully functioning system which was available for adoption around 11 ka ago.
The main theme of Peter’s article, as I understand it, was why adopt a system, agriculture, when it was inferior in terms of economy and health to hunting and gathering?
Which is perhaps less of a question if one takes the evolution of culture seriously.  Because then conditions in the human environment, which includes all other human beings and all the rest of the universe, including earth, flora, fauna, weather, the heavens, must have acted as selective forces on the thousand or ten thousand or a million evolutionary strands, behavioural and material, that ended up as what we used to call the Birth of Agriculture.  Which probably didn’t seem to be at all like the birth of agriculture at the time, but merely what people did.
I sometimes feel that we might understand this better if we’d spent a year or two doing subsistence farming as a matter of life and death.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As usual, a challenging hypothesis, very thought provoking.<br />
There is something in the air.  In The Guardian on Saturday there was a review of Daniel Dennet’s Intuition Pumps and other Tools for Thinking, in which Steven Rose generally slagged off Dennet, and then himself got a bit of a going over in the comments.  A CJ Hacket wrote, for instance, “You can&#8217;t talk favourably of group selection and expect to be taken seriously.”<br />
CJ Hacket has a point.  Quite a few philosophers, sociologists and anthropologists invoke the notion of human culture being an evolutionary process, while in fact ignoring evolution and even having a ball with teleological accounts which run directly counter to anything Darwin might have had in mind.<br />
A case in point.  Eminent men (not just Steven Rose, and I think they’re all men) have recently talked about evolution taking place at the level of the group.  Maybe I’m an old-fashioned literalist, but to me evolution involves re-iteration, variation and selection.  All three of them. The only selection process that might be exerted on a group is by that group’s environment, which will include other groups (ethno-lingusitic in Peter’s example).  A group in this sense has a certain amount in common with a species in biological evolution.  You might say that competition between species is in some sense evolutionary, in the competition between hunter and prey perhaps.  But it would be a very partial assertion, because at the same time you would have to acknolwledge that evolution only takes place at the level of a genetic, epigenetic, somatic and behavioural envelope; the individual.  It is individuals who are selected or not by their environment.  No other hypothesis is scientifically current.<br />
In Peter’s article, he is seeking to explain at least two things.  The first is the evolution of agriculture itself.  As Peter Richerson sugests with his usual gentle cogency, this must have been a very lengthy process, going back as far as you like, but at least 100 ka, and immensely complex, and also in an evolutionary interdependence with the rest of the behaviour of the human organism, fighting, painting and so on.  Peter (Turchin) is therefore very sensible to take this evolution as a given, and present agriculture as a fully functioning system which was available for adoption around 11 ka ago.<br />
The main theme of Peter’s article, as I understand it, was why adopt a system, agriculture, when it was inferior in terms of economy and health to hunting and gathering?<br />
Which is perhaps less of a question if one takes the evolution of culture seriously.  Because then conditions in the human environment, which includes all other human beings and all the rest of the universe, including earth, flora, fauna, weather, the heavens, must have acted as selective forces on the thousand or ten thousand or a million evolutionary strands, behavioural and material, that ended up as what we used to call the Birth of Agriculture.  Which probably didn’t seem to be at all like the birth of agriculture at the time, but merely what people did.<br />
I sometimes feel that we might understand this better if we’d spent a year or two doing subsistence farming as a matter of life and death.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Become a Farmer? by breviosity</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/20/why-become-a-farmer/#comment-16590</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[breviosity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 15:14:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1131#comment-16590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: ice age milling equipment. 
A recent report says that Chinese archaeologists have unearthed grinding stones 23,000 years old from the Yellow River area. 
So, they were grinding seeds ten millennia before agriculture, during the ice age. 
http://phys.org/news/2013-05-agriculture-china-years.html#inlRlv

To my mind, it implies that there needed to be a few millennia of eating ground starches to gradually pre-adapt people to the switch-over to agriculture and surviving primarily on this strange diet. (Not saying this is a sufficient explanation though.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: ice age milling equipment.<br />
A recent report says that Chinese archaeologists have unearthed grinding stones 23,000 years old from the Yellow River area.<br />
So, they were grinding seeds ten millennia before agriculture, during the ice age.<br />
<a href="http://phys.org/news/2013-05-agriculture-china-years.html#inlRlv" rel="nofollow">http://phys.org/news/2013-05-agriculture-china-years.html#inlRlv</a></p>
<p>To my mind, it implies that there needed to be a few millennia of eating ground starches to gradually pre-adapt people to the switch-over to agriculture and surviving primarily on this strange diet. (Not saying this is a sufficient explanation though.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Become a Farmer? by pjricherson</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/20/why-become-a-farmer/#comment-16563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pjricherson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 10:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1131#comment-16563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that the main problem with both Peter&#039;s and Sam&#039;s scenarios is that the transition  was not from standard mobile egalitarian hunters straight to farmers. Rather, mobile egalitarian hunter-gatherers with high percentages of meat in their diet first evolved into semi-sedentary plant intensive gatherer-hunters. The Natufian and similar Fertile Crescent  gather-hunters are one example. The Jamon tradition in Japan was a very long-duration example of gatherer-hunters. Californians had had such a tradition for a few thousand years before Europeans arrived. These are already very labor intensive systems. Some proto-agricultural techniques are often present. For example Californians cultivated tobacco and Great Basin people diverted water onto grasses and other herbaceous wild plants from which  they then harvested a richer crop. As far as we know, these systems are restricted to the Allerod-Bolling warm period at the very end of the Pleistocene and to the Holocene. People certainly used plant resources in the Pleistocene, but Bob Bettinger and I don&#039;t see any good evidence that the labor and  plant intensive systems existed during the last glacial. The signature artifacts of these systems are abundant heavy stone milling equipment which should be archaeologically highly visible.

The idea that the Younger Dryas millennial cold snap triggered agriculture in the Fertile Crescent is perhaps the standard hypothesis, championed by Ofer Bar-Yosef, the Dean of Fertile Crescent archaeology. Bob and I are skeptical on two grounds. First, Younger Dryas people seem to have substantially moved out of plant intensive subsistence back into more mobile hunting and gathering. That is,away from plant intensive techniques not toward more intensive versions of the Natufian and related systems. Second, most of the other primary developments of agriculture seem to have been later than the Fertile Crescent one. The Younger Dryas push hypothesis can&#039;t be a general explanation.

The gatherer-hunter economies are pre-adapted to move into agriculture but few did. Mark Blumler argues that the pre-adapted economic system has to meet up with a pre-adapted plant species or two for cultivation to take off, specifically large seeded annual plants (or suitable tubers in some cases). California&#039;s wild flora lacks an analog of wheat, barley, or teosinte (wild maize). The most important tubers were thumbnail sized. In California and Japan, one of the staples was acorns. They are plenty big, but not good candidates for domestication. In both California and Japan, agriculture was brought in by invaders, not adopted by natives by cultural diffusion. The speculation is that, at the margin, growing maize or rice did not look attractive to gatherer-hunters who had a system of acorns and whatever down pat. Switching to cultivation would required a lot of costly experimentation to perfect and even then might be no better or worse in terms of labor per unit food energy at prevailing population densities. On the other hand, if your target wild crop was a large seeded grass or forb, skills at handling it would already be in place and at the margin steps like deliberate sowing might have positive returns. You&#039;ve got less of an innovation hump to get over and can proceed to agriculture one small step at a time.

The role of warfare, if any, might be fairly subtle. Gatherer-hunter California was relatively peaceful at the time of contact due, according to Bob, to specific institutions that damped down feuding and inter-tribal warfare. Polly Wiessner&#039;s work in violence among the horticultural Enga of the New Guinea Highlands points to cycles of violence and peacemaking  similar to what Peter has studied in agrarian and modern societies. I like to think that the social organizational innovations are disproportionately in the peacemaking phase of the cycle rather than in the warmaking one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the main problem with both Peter&#8217;s and Sam&#8217;s scenarios is that the transition  was not from standard mobile egalitarian hunters straight to farmers. Rather, mobile egalitarian hunter-gatherers with high percentages of meat in their diet first evolved into semi-sedentary plant intensive gatherer-hunters. The Natufian and similar Fertile Crescent  gather-hunters are one example. The Jamon tradition in Japan was a very long-duration example of gatherer-hunters. Californians had had such a tradition for a few thousand years before Europeans arrived. These are already very labor intensive systems. Some proto-agricultural techniques are often present. For example Californians cultivated tobacco and Great Basin people diverted water onto grasses and other herbaceous wild plants from which  they then harvested a richer crop. As far as we know, these systems are restricted to the Allerod-Bolling warm period at the very end of the Pleistocene and to the Holocene. People certainly used plant resources in the Pleistocene, but Bob Bettinger and I don&#8217;t see any good evidence that the labor and  plant intensive systems existed during the last glacial. The signature artifacts of these systems are abundant heavy stone milling equipment which should be archaeologically highly visible.</p>
<p>The idea that the Younger Dryas millennial cold snap triggered agriculture in the Fertile Crescent is perhaps the standard hypothesis, championed by Ofer Bar-Yosef, the Dean of Fertile Crescent archaeology. Bob and I are skeptical on two grounds. First, Younger Dryas people seem to have substantially moved out of plant intensive subsistence back into more mobile hunting and gathering. That is,away from plant intensive techniques not toward more intensive versions of the Natufian and related systems. Second, most of the other primary developments of agriculture seem to have been later than the Fertile Crescent one. The Younger Dryas push hypothesis can&#8217;t be a general explanation.</p>
<p>The gatherer-hunter economies are pre-adapted to move into agriculture but few did. Mark Blumler argues that the pre-adapted economic system has to meet up with a pre-adapted plant species or two for cultivation to take off, specifically large seeded annual plants (or suitable tubers in some cases). California&#8217;s wild flora lacks an analog of wheat, barley, or teosinte (wild maize). The most important tubers were thumbnail sized. In California and Japan, one of the staples was acorns. They are plenty big, but not good candidates for domestication. In both California and Japan, agriculture was brought in by invaders, not adopted by natives by cultural diffusion. The speculation is that, at the margin, growing maize or rice did not look attractive to gatherer-hunters who had a system of acorns and whatever down pat. Switching to cultivation would required a lot of costly experimentation to perfect and even then might be no better or worse in terms of labor per unit food energy at prevailing population densities. On the other hand, if your target wild crop was a large seeded grass or forb, skills at handling it would already be in place and at the margin steps like deliberate sowing might have positive returns. You&#8217;ve got less of an innovation hump to get over and can proceed to agriculture one small step at a time.</p>
<p>The role of warfare, if any, might be fairly subtle. Gatherer-hunter California was relatively peaceful at the time of contact due, according to Bob, to specific institutions that damped down feuding and inter-tribal warfare. Polly Wiessner&#8217;s work in violence among the horticultural Enga of the New Guinea Highlands points to cycles of violence and peacemaking  similar to what Peter has studied in agrarian and modern societies. I like to think that the social organizational innovations are disproportionately in the peacemaking phase of the cycle rather than in the warmaking one.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Become a Farmer? by Nikolai Rozov</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/20/why-become-a-farmer/#comment-16550</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nikolai Rozov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 08:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1131#comment-16550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peter, why don&#039;t you use the circumscription theory by Bob Carneiro for explanation of political evolution? This model contains such powerful conceptual components as: 1) phisical circumscription (nowhere to escape) 2) social circumscription (all neibouring places are already occupied), 3) resource gradient (any other place is worse), 4) population pressure (following 1-3), 5) growth of shiefdoms&#039; size because of warfare and alliances, 6) class relations between winners and loosers and coercion for labour - especially for hard labour on fields. All these concepts (factors) do not contadict your group evolutionary idea but make it more rich and clear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, why don&#8217;t you use the circumscription theory by Bob Carneiro for explanation of political evolution? This model contains such powerful conceptual components as: 1) phisical circumscription (nowhere to escape) 2) social circumscription (all neibouring places are already occupied), 3) resource gradient (any other place is worse), 4) population pressure (following 1-3), 5) growth of shiefdoms&#8217; size because of warfare and alliances, 6) class relations between winners and loosers and coercion for labour &#8211; especially for hard labour on fields. All these concepts (factors) do not contadict your group evolutionary idea but make it more rich and clear.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Become a Farmer? by T. Greer</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/20/why-become-a-farmer/#comment-16543</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[T. Greer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 07:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1131#comment-16543</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great essay.Your summary statement in the concluding paragraph is well said, and I agree that the group of cultural traits you identify are prerequisites for functioning complex societies &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; agriculture.

But I am still left with a few questions.

1) There still seems to be a &quot;then a miracle occurs&quot; moment in the progression you set forth. You arrange things thus:

1) Climate change &lt;i&gt;leads to&lt;/i&gt; 2) intense competition between tribes &lt;i&gt;which favors&lt;/i&gt; 3) larger tribal groups &lt;i&gt;which need&lt;/i&gt; 4) a strong sense of social cohesion to work effectively &lt;i&gt;which leads to&lt;/i&gt; 4) the capacity to adopt agriculture. 

The problem with the sequence is that it does not explain &lt;i&gt;why&lt;/I&gt; agriculture was adopted. It explains the necessary prerequisites to agriculture (social cohesion, complex society), and it explains why agriculture was such a useful adaptation (larger population, and by extension, larger fighting force). But we are missing the &lt;b&gt;mechanism&lt;/b&gt; that brought this transition about.    

Did hunter gatherer tribesmen realize that adopting agricultural production would raise their population over the next few generations, thus allowing them to establish martial dominance? If we asked one of these people in the midst of the transition why they were growing plants in the ground, is this what they would say?

Probably not. It is a good explanation for why agriculture succeeded after it began; it is less useful for explaining why individual communities actually made the shift.

I would submit that &lt;b&gt;sedentarism&lt;/b&gt; plays an important role here. In North America we see large, complex hunter-gatherer societies in places of unusual resource abundance. The pacific Northwest is a great example - it has a higher biomass per square foot than anywhere else on the continent. Tribal groups in the Pacific northwest did not need to cover large areas or move around often to find game or forage. They could survive by staying put.

This leads to a few important things: increased population, the chance to build and use buildings/ritual centers, and perhaps most importantly, the chance to raise animals or domesticate plants in one place. It was probably very accidental to start out with - the seeds of what the H-G folks ate started growing next to their camps (perhaps in their waste areas?), and the H-G folks were still around when it was time for harvest. (Similar process with animals - only dogs could be domesticated before settled society arose). 

2) Is there any evidence that Younger Dryas climate change affected plant communities adversely in the regions where agriculture developed? (Coming out of the ice age boosted plant productivity in the Pacific Northwest - but then again, they never had agriculture. As suggested above, they survived just fine off of the abundant forage the new landscape provided).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great essay.Your summary statement in the concluding paragraph is well said, and I agree that the group of cultural traits you identify are prerequisites for functioning complex societies <i>and</i> agriculture.</p>
<p>But I am still left with a few questions.</p>
<p>1) There still seems to be a &#8220;then a miracle occurs&#8221; moment in the progression you set forth. You arrange things thus:</p>
<p>1) Climate change <i>leads to</i> 2) intense competition between tribes <i>which favors</i> 3) larger tribal groups <i>which need</i> 4) a strong sense of social cohesion to work effectively <i>which leads to</i> 4) the capacity to adopt agriculture. </p>
<p>The problem with the sequence is that it does not explain <i>why</i> agriculture was adopted. It explains the necessary prerequisites to agriculture (social cohesion, complex society), and it explains why agriculture was such a useful adaptation (larger population, and by extension, larger fighting force). But we are missing the <b>mechanism</b> that brought this transition about.    </p>
<p>Did hunter gatherer tribesmen realize that adopting agricultural production would raise their population over the next few generations, thus allowing them to establish martial dominance? If we asked one of these people in the midst of the transition why they were growing plants in the ground, is this what they would say?</p>
<p>Probably not. It is a good explanation for why agriculture succeeded after it began; it is less useful for explaining why individual communities actually made the shift.</p>
<p>I would submit that <b>sedentarism</b> plays an important role here. In North America we see large, complex hunter-gatherer societies in places of unusual resource abundance. The pacific Northwest is a great example &#8211; it has a higher biomass per square foot than anywhere else on the continent. Tribal groups in the Pacific northwest did not need to cover large areas or move around often to find game or forage. They could survive by staying put.</p>
<p>This leads to a few important things: increased population, the chance to build and use buildings/ritual centers, and perhaps most importantly, the chance to raise animals or domesticate plants in one place. It was probably very accidental to start out with &#8211; the seeds of what the H-G folks ate started growing next to their camps (perhaps in their waste areas?), and the H-G folks were still around when it was time for harvest. (Similar process with animals &#8211; only dogs could be domesticated before settled society arose). </p>
<p>2) Is there any evidence that Younger Dryas climate change affected plant communities adversely in the regions where agriculture developed? (Coming out of the ice age boosted plant productivity in the Pacific Northwest &#8211; but then again, they never had agriculture. As suggested above, they survived just fine off of the abundant forage the new landscape provided).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Become a Farmer? by Grey</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/20/why-become-a-farmer/#comment-16538</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 06:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1131#comment-16538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;This is why monuments, used for ritualistic purposes by large groups of people, according to this theory, can (in fact are expected) to appear before the transition to agriculture.&quot;

Makes sense i think except i don&#039;t believe you need climate change to hit a tipping point in the level of conflict just a region where the resources available to HGs were particularly abundant thus leading to relatively high population densities. It could even be positive climate change in the sense that it *increased* resources available in certain regions leading to an increase in population and a subsequent increase in conflict and a search for a way of defusing it.

A lot of ancient priesthoods were the judges.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This is why monuments, used for ritualistic purposes by large groups of people, according to this theory, can (in fact are expected) to appear before the transition to agriculture.&#8221;</p>
<p>Makes sense i think except i don&#8217;t believe you need climate change to hit a tipping point in the level of conflict just a region where the resources available to HGs were particularly abundant thus leading to relatively high population densities. It could even be positive climate change in the sense that it *increased* resources available in certain regions leading to an increase in population and a subsequent increase in conflict and a search for a way of defusing it.</p>
<p>A lot of ancient priesthoods were the judges.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Complex Societies before Agriculture: Göbekli Tepe by Grey</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/17/complex-societies-before-agriculture-gobekli-tepe/#comment-16535</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 06:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1117#comment-16535</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[“Wonderment at changes in the world leads to organized religion”

A region where unusually abundant resources allowed HGs to develop population densities of a similar level to agriculture sounds to me like a recipe for either a) lots of conflict and violence between different groups or b) free-riding on the surplus. Either of which (or in fact both) could give rise to a priesthood.

If so and if the priesthood created a central spot like Gobekli for group hugs then anyone who&#039;s ever been to an open air festival without proper sanitation should be able to imagine what would happen - the seeds of wild edible plants that people brought with them to eat during the festival left behind in the latrines covering the mountain - and hence agriculture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Wonderment at changes in the world leads to organized religion”</p>
<p>A region where unusually abundant resources allowed HGs to develop population densities of a similar level to agriculture sounds to me like a recipe for either a) lots of conflict and violence between different groups or b) free-riding on the surplus. Either of which (or in fact both) could give rise to a priesthood.</p>
<p>If so and if the priesthood created a central spot like Gobekli for group hugs then anyone who&#8217;s ever been to an open air festival without proper sanitation should be able to imagine what would happen &#8211; the seeds of wild edible plants that people brought with them to eat during the festival left behind in the latrines covering the mountain &#8211; and hence agriculture.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Complex Societies before Agriculture: Göbekli Tepe by Peter Turchin</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/17/complex-societies-before-agriculture-gobekli-tepe/#comment-16529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Turchin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 05:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1117#comment-16529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you all for these really insightful comments - my ability to respond is limited due to intermittent Internet connection...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you all for these really insightful comments &#8211; my ability to respond is limited due to intermittent Internet connection&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Complex Societies before Agriculture: Göbekli Tepe by Peter Turchin</title>
		<link>http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/17/complex-societies-before-agriculture-gobekli-tepe/#comment-16528</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Turchin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 05:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialevolutionforum.com/?p=1117#comment-16528</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I should clarify that when I talk about social complexity, the main thing I have in mind large scale, the number of people in a society. Other kinds of complexity (sophisticated art, rich diversity of artifacts, intricate division of labor) are possible in small-scale societies, and I do not mean to &#039;diss&#039; such cultural characteristics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should clarify that when I talk about social complexity, the main thing I have in mind large scale, the number of people in a society. Other kinds of complexity (sophisticated art, rich diversity of artifacts, intricate division of labor) are possible in small-scale societies, and I do not mean to &#8216;diss&#8217; such cultural characteristics.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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